This episode was recorded at the 2025 Florida Ruminant Nutrition Symposium. Dr. Bach gives an overview of his presentation, highlighting that buffers make the rumen resistant to a decrease in pH while alkalizers immediately increase rumen pH. He prefers magnesium oxide, an alkalizer, over sodium bicarbonate, a buffer. Both are effective, but sodium bicarbonate requires a larger amount, thus taking up more room in the diet. The magnesium oxide must be of high quality and soluble in the rumen. (3:40)
This episode was recorded at the 2025 Florida Ruminant Nutrition Symposium.
Dr. Bach gives an overview of his presentation, highlighting that buffers make the rumen resistant to a decrease in pH while alkalizers immediately increase rumen pH. He prefers magnesium oxide, an alkalizer, over sodium bicarbonate, a buffer. Both are effective, but sodium bicarbonate requires a larger amount, thus taking up more room in the diet. The magnesium oxide must be of high quality and soluble in the rumen. (3:40)
Dr. Richards asks if we should use magnesium oxide more as a first line of defense against acidosis. Dr. Bach notes that the very best strategy is to avoid using either additive by making a proper ration balanced in terms of amount and rate of degradation of starch. But there are many constraints in the field, so he recommends using magnesium oxide before sodium bicarbonate. For the magnesium oxide to be effective, it must be solubilized in the rumen to magnesium hydroxide, and solubility can be tested in a variety of ways to determine quality. (7:35)
The panel discusses the impact of magnesium oxide in place of sodium bicarbonate on DCAD and which DCAD equation(s) should be used for calculations. Dr. Bach recommends removing sodium bicarbonate from rations containing less than 1% of the ingredient. It will have little effect on the rumen, but make room in the ration. The panel explores how this can impact farm-level economics. (12:39)
Dr. Bach also mentions probiotics and their impact on rumen function. In vitro studies have shown a wide variety of modes of action and positive results. Extrapolating in vitro doses to the cow often results in unsustainable amounts of the additive needing to be fed. Applied studies at the cow level have yielded inconsistent results. (23:29)
Scott asks how long Dr. Bach has been making the case for pulling sodium bicarbonate out and putting magnesium oxide in, and what kind of pushback he has received. Dr. Bach gives some of the reasons farmers have given for not wanting to make this management change. He also notes that farmers who do make the switch do not tend to go back to sodium bicarbonate. (25:18)
Dr. Bach and Maimie discuss grass silage diets and grazing diets with high amounts of moisture and how best to combat acidosis symptoms with those. In diets like this, where you’re not trying to make room for energy, sodium bicarbonate can be a good choice. Dr. Richards chimes in with questions about the ratio of the two ingredients; Dr. Bach indicates the ratio doesn’t mean much to him. (26:16)
Panelists share their take-home thoughts. (33:27)
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Scott Sorrell (00:09):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the podcast we're leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. My name is Scott Sorrell. I'm gonna be your host here tonight, and I've got two co-hosts. It's both from the uk. Okay. Yeah. So we got Scotland and Wales. Yeah. All right. Alright. Very well, Dr. Sion Richards. He's with Balchem and he's our fairly new minted tech service person for the, the EA region. So Sion, why don't you go ahead and just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Dr. Sion Richards (00:47):
Thanks, Scott. Yeah, Sion Richards worked for biochemist Ruminant technical services manager for emea. Originally from, as you said earlier, from from Wales, came from farming background and I've spent approximately 30 years working in the animal feed industry for a number of commercial companies.
Scott Sorrell (01:06):
Ah, great. And your first time at the pub. So welcome, welcome.
Dr. Sion Richards (01:10):
Cheers.
Scott Sorrell (01:10):
Yeah, cheers. Another first timer Maimie French. She's with kite Nutrition. It's one of the largest, least in my opinion and most respected nutrition companies in Europe. And so thank you for joining us today. Yeah.
Maimie French (01:26):
It's, it's Kite consulting. Kite consulting. Yeah. So we, we have both business and technical consultants in the uk. One of the independent leading consultants in the uk. I'm a technical consultant specializing in nutrition, although from Scotland, based in the southwest of England. So quite different climate down there compared to Scotland. But I deal with farmers in both southwest of England and the southwest of Scotland. Okay. So a bit of a range.
Scott Sorrell (01:55):
And Jonas, you're in a different chair this time no longer co-host. You've been elevated to color analyst. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Thank you for joining us once again. For those that may have missed the previous podcast, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?
Dr. Jonas De Souza (02:10):
Yeah, so I'm Jonas Dusa. I'm the director of research and technical services for Purdue Animal Nutrition. So Purdue is a US based company. We we are in the protein business, you know growing chickens, pork, beef, you know, you name it. Leon on the animal nutrition side, we we primarily specialize in supplements, protein in in fatty acid supplements to both monogastric, but primarily ruminants, primarily dairy cows. So I'm, I'm native from Brazil, moved to the US over 10 years ago to get my PhD. Did my PhD at Michigan State University and then Purdue recruit me during the, that during my PhD. And I serve as a technical service at the beginning. And today a leader, technical or technical team across the country.
Scott Sorrell (03:04):
Yeah. And Purdue they sponsored the pre-conference symposia here at the Florida Ruminant Nutrition Symposia. Want to thank you for that. Supporting the industry and invited in several speakers, one of which was Dr. Alex Bach from Catalonia. Great. And Alex is from I-C-R-E-A in Catalonia. And he gave a presentation called the Role of Buffers and Alkalis to improve rumen function and animal performance. So why don't you just kind of start us off and kind of give us an outline of what your, your presentation is all about today.
Dr. Alex Bach (03:40):
Well, it was basically a, a, a review or, or it was meant to be a a thought provoking presentation. Good. So I, I pose a question of are we chasing a ghost? Well, we chase rum acidosis. So is it, because you look at the literature, you always get incidents around 20%. So is that physiological or is that something that prevents to have more cows like that, or, and so then I, I go along and, and basically the conclusions is that the cows are smart, so they prevent women acidosis and they stop eating. So it is a problem because when the cows eat less, then they produce less milk. Yeah. Right. So then I elaborated about things that we could do to avoid these rubino acidosis or to control it and prevent it. And one of the things was buffers and ionizers, I explained the difference between these two. A buffer will make this rumen resistant or hesitant to change pH, whereas b alizer will immediately increase the pH of the rumen.
Scott Sorrell (04:40):
Yeah. Some of the key takeaways, key points you wanted to make
Dr. Alex Bach (04:45):
By comparing these two strategies, I talk about some other strategies as well, but by comparing these two I like better magnesium oxide, which is an alizer over a buffer, like sodium bicarbonate reason being both are effective, but the sodium bicarbonate needs a larger amount. So we have to feed about 1% of dry matter that's about 270 grams. Whereas you can do the same job or even better with manum oxide at the rate of maybe 60 or 70 grams. Yeah. So by feeding so carbonate, you have a direct cost of the additive that you're adding to the r plus an indirect cost, which results from the necessity of increasing the amount of protein and energy that you feed to the cows, because now a fraction of your ration or your total capacity of intake is reduced. Yeah. Or substituted by just rocks. Yeah. Which do not provide energy or protein. Yeah. So, and it turns out that actually magnesium oxide, if it's of high quality and means it's soluble. Yeah. Because if it's not soluble, it does nothing in the rumen and nothing to the animal either. It's, it's more effective than so carbonate in many instances.
Scott Sorrell (05:50):
Okay. Is there a risk of maybe going too high with the alizer? There
Dr. Alex Bach (05:54):
Is a potential risk. There is always a risk when you go too high in anything even with water. But mag, any excess of magnesium will be excreted by the animal. It's true that if you feed a lot of magnesium, you may cause some scours or diarrhea. Yeah. But beyond that, it's not, it's not a problem. Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (06:11):
Okay.
Dr. Alex Bach (06:12):
And you should really feed, like in decent amounts, like 2% or maybe one and a half percent. Yeah. Which you will not
Scott Sorrell (06:18):
Do. Okay.
Dr. Alex Bach (06:19):
Hopefully,
Scott Sorrell (06:20):
Sion, you were at the presentation. What some of the key thoughts or takeaways you had there?
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Dr. Sion Richards (07:35):
I, I mean, first of all, great compliment to Alex. He did a fantastic job of you know, being thought provoking. And, you know, to me, I think it was, you know, made me think, do, do we rush for so bicarbonate too soon? You know, should we be using mag oxide as a much more of a first, you know, first line defense? And, you know, what does it mean for our magnesium requirements? You know, should we be actually increasing magnesium requirements? Tony, your thoughts? Alex?
Dr. Alex Bach (08:09):
No, I like the way you phrase it. No. Are we rushing for sodium bicarbonate or magnesium? I think we probably are rushing. So before I went to, I, I got into alizer and buffers. I also talk about other strategies, you know, and, and, and probably the best strategy to avoid the use of these two is make a nice rush. So formula, it's ration properly that there is no need for these additives. And, and a rational like that would be a rational that really is calibrate or balanced in terms of starch amount and starch of rate of degradation of the starch. So these are the two main issues. But if you try to do that and whatever you are, you have constraints in the farm, you have the corn that you have, you have the corn silage, and you, you got to use that, then I would rather first start with magnesium oxide and then go to sodium bicarbonate. And in most of the occasions, you will get the job done with only magnesium oxide. If it is of good quality. That's important.
Dr. Sion Richards (09:05):
How do you define the quality?
Dr. Alex Bach (09:07):
You know? Right. For magnesium to be effective, it needs to be sized. That's a big difference. From sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, it's really soluble. So it's active right away. Magnesium oxide will only be active when it's solubilized and it's converted into magnesium hydroxide. That's what does the trick. So there are many magnesium oxides that due to the quality or their grinding size or their temperature of, of synthesis from the rocks is not soluble at all. Or you really need to be at very, very low pH I'm talking about three or 3.5 for that magnesium oxide to actually become soluble. So you have to be careful with the source of magnesium you use
Dr. Sion Richards (09:47):
Is, you know, is a standard method for measuring magnesium solubility and a way to
Dr. Alex Bach (09:54):
Compare. Yeah. There, there are several methods to do it. There is the vinegar method, which is the most common one, which is acetate. So you put you have a solution of a CTIC acid, and you add a known amount of magnesium, and then you measure the changing pH is the magnesium is soluble. Ph will go up. So you can change, you can test different sources. The problem is that acidic acid is much more acidic than Ruben pH. So it's you might have a good magnesium oxide that dissolves in acidic acid and does not dissolved in pH because a pH is greater. So there are other methods that actually buffer that and use a greater room pH.
Dr. Sion Richards (10:33):
I I was gonna say to me, you know, listening to it as a scientist, you would say, you should be using pH six, or, you
Dr. Alex Bach (10:40):
Know Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and there is some buffer solutions or, or rubin artificial Rubin liquids that, that are used for that as well.
Maimie French (10:47):
Alex, I was gonna ask, obviously you didn't in the data that you looked at, you didn't see benefit from using sodium by car, but in times of heat stress, for example, that would maybe be a typical solution that some people reach for to, to help with that, with that kind of heat stress situation. In terms of diet mitigations, did you look at cows in heat stress situation, and did you see a different response to sodium bicarbonate those situations?
Dr. Alex Bach (11:16):
Yeah, I have not done that myself. I have not done research firsthand on that. I don't know why you would use though sodium Kermit under heat stress. Right. cows they will lose a lot of cas in heat stress, but basically potassium. So if you want to supplement with a cat, you would use potassium, but it's expensive. So potassium carbonate people hesitate to use it because of the price. Then going back to arum acidosis, when there is hit stress, what is the first thing that the cows do? They eat less? So in my talk, I was talking, I was saying that one of the main causes of rum acidosis is the amount of starts that you put into the rumen. So cows are un hit stress, they tend to eat less. So ironically, they're in a lower risk of having rum acidosis. Of course then what we do, the, if the cow eats less immediately, we increase the energy density of the diet. And we do that by introducing the forage or by increasing fat. So if we reduce forage, we're increasing artificially the amount of starch that we're providing because we increase the percentage of starch in the diet. And even though the intake goes down, the total multiplication leads to more starch. And that might cause some acidosis. But again, that situation man oxide should be your friend. Yeah.
Dr. Sion Richards (12:39):
In, in that situation, Alex, you know, you where by replacing bicarb with magnesium oxide, you'll have an impact on the standard DeCalb calculation. And I was very intrigued in your paper about, you know, you, you referred to two or three different DeKalb calculations, you know, which one should we using when we're talking about room pH,
Dr. Alex Bach (13:04):
Right? Yeah. And that's a concern, right? If you remove sodium bicarbonate, and also that in heat stress situations, eh you might be shorting cas and, and cows really do benefit from having cas in, in, in their diet because they will have an effect on, on not only ruin pH, but also especially in blood pH and also in, in the amount of water they drink and how much they urinate, DCA tries to measure what's the effect of those ions in, in, in blood pH. And the, the initial proposal for DCA equations was to consider the strong ions. So it would be potassium sodium on the positive side, and then chlorine on, on the negative. Then later on, about 10 years later sulfur was included in the, in the equation, but you can extend that equation to other cas and ions. So you can include also magnesium and calcium or, or phosphates. I actually like the latter, so the one that has a whole picture of all the ions. But when you look at the litter, you have to be careful because depending on the number or the de card that you used on the equation that you used to calculate that, you'll have tremendously different numbers. But like from 150 to 300 or 400 even, eh, so it's, it, it's really, so when you put data together and look at the literature as it's a bit complicated, you have to consider the equation that you use.
Dr. Sion Richards (14:22):
That struck me when I, you know, listened to your presentation. That's, you know, you were talking about using a, a more extended decalb equation. But, you know, ingrained in my head is that lactating cows need 250 to 300 decal, but by the, the standards decarb calculation, they're just using the four cut irons and ions. And I'm thinking I need to recalibrate myself to use the more extended equation,
Dr. Alex Bach (14:52):
Especially if you're gonna use the strategy of removing sodium bicarbonate and substituting by magnesium oxide. I would invite you to do that because if you only use sodium, potassium, chlorine and sulfur, you're not gonna consider the effect of magnesium. And in the paper that represented that we did with comparing sodium bicarbonate and magnesium oxide, we calculate the two dcas with or without magnesium specifically for that. And the, one of the reasons why the cows did not go down in intake when we reduce dca at when we removed sodium bicarbonate is basically because we added magnesium, and magnesium also increased dca. So the D cat did not go down as much as we expected. If you only consider sodium and disregard magnesium,
Dr. Sion Richards (15:33):
If we're using the more extended decal calculations, where should the target be for lactating cows?
Dr. Alex Bach (15:40):
Yeah, that's a very difficult question because it's not very well used that equation. Right? So, but in, in our study, we don't see negative effects in intake when you go down to 150 or even 147 DCA when considered magnesium.
Dr. Sion Richards (15:56):
So, so perhaps I should put a figure in my head of an absolute minimum, DCAP of 150. Yeah.
Dr. Alex Bach (16:03):
I try to avoid this. I know we all like we like these percentages, these thresholds, these numbers, right. These lines that we don't wanna cross. But I think biology, it never has a line. It's always because it's multifactorial. Yep. So you can get along with a threshold that is a bit lower if diet is somewhat different. Right. So it's, but yeah, it's nice to have a ballpark figure, but I would not call it like
Dr. Sion Richards (16:26):
Yep. Limit. I love that point. Great point.
Scott Sorrell (16:29):
Yeah. So what percent of, of the dairy populations are using alizer versus a buffer?
Dr. Alex Bach (16:36):
I think the industry is, I think both are very common. I think it's, it's very easy to find Russians across the world that they have a combination of sodium bicarbonate and magnum oxide. Okay. And the typical combination would be maybe 0.5% sodium bicarbonate and 0.3 magnum oxide. That's quite common. I could argue that if you are in that situation, you can very safely remove sodium bicarbonate. I've done that many, many times. Okay. Whenever you're using soya carbonate below 1%, take it out because the impact you have on room fermentation and room pH is very, very minor. You cannot appreciate it. Yeah. Whereas you can really appreciate the change in economics, in the diet. Okay. Because it takes a considerable amount of space and that forces the cost to, of the Russian to go high.
Scott Sorrell (17:22):
Jonas not heard from you yet. What's some of the, as our color commentator? Yeah. What's some of your your takeaways from the, the discussion
Dr. Jonas De Souza (17:28):
Today? No, I think discussion has been great around the dca. I, I, I think my experience from the field at least, you know, I think a lot of people don't remove the bicarb because it's like an insurance policy, right? Right.
Scott Sorrell (17:42):
And they've been doing it for years.
Dr. Jonas De Souza (17:43):
Right, exactly. Whatever. Right. I think Alex point out really well, you know, most of the, really, the research done, it was in the late eighties, right? And on bicarb, and you kind of have these, you know, just, just that 1% of bicarb and, you know, call it a day, you know? So and, and, and that's, I think, the resistance that we face, you know when people start thinking about the whole bicarb and, and do I need or do I not? Right? And, you know, thinking about like a consultant, right? He's, he's feeding a pen of cows and there is variability on that pen, and usually you're overcrowd, right? So you have the cows, the lagger, the cows that we will have. So I think that's what makes people you know, a little bit more hesitant on removing and, you know, but I, I, I do agree that, you know, that idea of removing, you know, maybe if you have a half a percent, is that gonna make a big difference, right? In, in the performance. But one of the, the, the points I really like Alex on the DEC A was the, when you look to the intake, you know, and really look into that paper, that Metaanalysis look to relationship that really, you know, at normal DCA levels, you know, there's no effect on intake, right? It's really driven by those low DCA points on that curve. So Exactly. Maybe want to expand on that a little bit. Yep.
Dr. Alex Bach (19:03):
Yeah, that's, that's the problem. Every time we do regression analysis, even linear or curve linear or quadratic, the, the best way to have a nice R square to have a nice relationship is to go to very large streams, right? So if you're asking the question is DCA has an effect on intake and you put minus thousand and a and a thousand, oh, yes, it will have an effect. But in the practical conditions lactating cows will always get rationals that are between 120 and maybe 600. That's where you should do the regression analysis. So that's what I try to illustrate in the graph that I was showing, because in the main analysis, they had negative values, which you will never have or almost never have an lactating diet. And I just, if you remove those points, you come up with a straight line. So there is no relationship between intake and, and dca mm-hmm
Dr. Jonas De Souza (19:51):
Yeah. And I think brings to the point that, you know, maybe between that one 50 and 400, there's not a lot going on, you it, right? So,
Dr. Alex Bach (20:00):
And we, we, technical people will, we, we really like the mode of action and, and, and we say, no, IBI carbonate is very important because the dca, because sodium and the pH and blah, blah, blah, that is all fine. And then insurance policy that you were talking about is also fine. We have to ask the question, how much does it cost? Yes. Is that work? So is that insurance policy profitable sustainable, right? If you take into account the, the, the indirect cost, it's almost have a liter of milk or a liter of milk. So,
Dr. Jonas De Souza (20:34):
Yeah. And then if you consider that let's talk a little bit about economics, right? So if you use the USDA data, an average cow in the US in an average farm will make a dollar per cow per day. Right? So if you're talking about 10 to 25 cents, you know, that's, that's a lot of money. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Dr. Alex Bach (20:53):
It's a lot of money.
Dr. Jonas De Souza (20:54):
It's a lot of money. You know, think about your investments. If you have a 10 to 25% return, that's, that's pretty good return, right? Mm-Hmm
Dr. Alex Bach (21:13):
You've also mentioned that, that people justify use, so macro carbonate because of stocking density that maybe it's sober, crowded a little bit. And I would argue that that's one more reason why you should remove sodium macro carbonate, because now you have more space in your diet to properly feed these cows. 'cause You, you're, you're, you're always working against yourself when you put so carbonate in there, that insurance policy costs you money, but it also costs you space that you could use to add extra energy to the cows and
Dr. Jonas De Souza (21:38):
Energy and protein. Yeah. Yeah. Make it.
Dr. Sion Richards (21:42):
As we look at, you know, ever higher yielding cows, that that staving of space is gonna be more and more important. Yeah. You know, to get more energy in there and, you know, to get more amino acids in there. It, it is gonna absolutely key to, to, to minimize those, you know, you know, fillers, for lack of a better word. And if we can concentrate to neutralizes that has a positive benefit.
Dr. Alex Bach (22:06):
Yeah. I, I would argue that most of the improvements we've done in, in, in meal production a big proportion of that is genetics. Mm-Hmm
Dr. Jonas De Souza (22:50):
Just that genetic, you know, diet interaction. Right. Yeah. The only comment that will make there, you know, I think I, I think a little bit different. You know, I joke with my friends on genetic. I said, we knew how to feed high producing cows. Now you're finally catching up us on the genetics, and that's why we are getting these great results. Right. So they are, they're the ones after us. So, but
Dr. Alex Bach (23:11):
I give them the credit. I give them the credit. Okay.
Maimie French (23:14):
Just on that kind of efficiency topic and space and the ration, one of the other methods you mentioned in reduction of uric acidosis was the, the live yeast story. Do you want to expand on that at all?
Dr. Alex Bach (23:29):
Yeah. It, it would be the, the whole section of probiotics. No, it would be yeast. It could be multicellular, hungers, fungus, or it would be actually bacteria as well. No. So you have an array of options there with very detailed mode of actions in vitro very, very detailed oxygen scavenging, push fiber degradation fostering of the growth of fibro de bacteria competing for the starch with stato swaby, plenty of mechanism of action. The problem with those in vitro systems is that they use a dose that when you extrapolate it to in vivo is like humongous. It's very, very big. So I have a big a big trouble with that. And then when you go in vivo you see a lot of variants. So in some studies you have positive results. In some studies you have no results.
Dr. Alex Bach (24:20):
Many reasons for that. I think one is the dose, the other one is the diet, and the other one is the life yeast that, or probiotic that you use. So I don't know how to handle that. It's a bit complicated. I have a method to see if the magnum oxide is soluble. I don't have a method easy method Yes. To see if the yeast is gonna do what I expect to do. So to me, it's a second array of weapons to fight rum acidosis. Yeah. 'cause of the cost. Yeah. They're not cheap.
Maimie French (24:50):
Yeah.
Dr. Alex Bach (24:50):
Not the cheapest. Yeah. And I don't have that consistency that I, that it's making me invest on that buck without hesitating much.
Maimie French (24:59):
Yeah. So soluble magnesium oxide would be your number one go
Dr. Alex Bach (25:03):
To. That would be my number one would be make a nice ration. Yes. Do do your, do do your job as nutritionist. Yeah. And then if, if you have shortcomings, because whatever raw materials you have or whatever, then my first line of defense would be magnesium oxide.
Scott Sorrell (25:18):
So you've made a compelling case, at least to me, that you gotta take a look at pulling some bicarb out and putting some magnesium oxide in. How long have you been making this case?
Dr. Alex Bach (25:27):
Many years.
Scott Sorrell (25:28):
Okay. And, and in what kind of pushback do you get?
Dr. Alex Bach (25:31):
Many
Scott Sorrell (25:55):
Okay. And do you get most of 'em to try it?
Dr. Alex Bach (25:58):
The, the ones, I say one thing that the guys that try it, they stay with it. Okay. So they, they don't go back to adding sodium carbonate.
Scott Sorrell (26:05):
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Alex Bach (26:05):
But there are guys that they just don't, don't want to do it.
Scott Sorrell (26:08):
Yeah. Interesting. For the panel, any big, ah, topics that we've not covered yet that we probably ought to cover on this?
Maimie French (26:16):
I was just gonna ask a very UK-centric question in terms of diets and back on the kind of acidosis topic. But we are heavy users of grass silage, which in the UK tends to be low dry matter, high lactic acid very degradable in the room. And you know, difficult sometimes to get maybe the level of physically affected fiber, especially if you're limited on forage as well. And, and so in any data that you've looked at Alex, or have, you know, I know you have experience in the uk, would, would you have looked at that in terms of also specific measures to mitigate acidosis with, with buffers in, in that situation? Yeah,
Dr. Alex Bach (26:59):
It's, it's, it's a tricky one. And you see that also in, in, in New Zealand, in the zore, in high pasture based systems. Yeah. Where the ration is extremely wet. Mm-Hmm
Dr. Sion Richards (28:10):
Does that mean we should be thinking about dry matter contents of diets? Yes.
Dr. Alex Bach (28:15):
Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. Sion Richards (28:17):
You know, I think through my career I've probably seen diets become wetter you know, because of sorting products. Yeah. And, and managing sorting. And I think what you're saying is, should we go drier again?
Dr. Alex Bach (28:33):
Yeah. Like everything, right? You, you need your, your, your line of comfort there. But I, I like to see dry matters above 48% and up to 55%. That, that, that's where I feel comfortable. When you go below 48 to 45, 40% dry matter you're gonna run into troubles like she was describing.
Dr. Sion Richards (28:58):
That's interesting because I, I would certainly say, you know, in my career I've seen average dry matters go from 45, 50 down to probably sub 40 now, you know, in, in some parts of yeah, great point.
Dr. Alex Bach (29:13):
Alex. That's a challenge. That's a challenge. Yeah.
Dr. Alex Bach (29:16):
It's also a challenge management of the cows that, so typical thi the cows get milk, what do they do first they drink and they go to the feed bank. That would be the ideal scenario. I don't let the cows going out of the milking parlor go to the feed bank and then get water, because now you have a, a room full of fresh feet with lots of starch. Now the, the cow is thirsty because after milking, she wants to drink, she's eaten, now she's gonna drink lots of milk water, and then pH is gonna go down.
Dr. Sion Richards (29:42):
That's an interesting one. How do, how do you change that pattern?
Dr. Alex Bach (29:45):
Oh, just put water troughs at the exit of the milking power and make sure the cows drink first. Drink exactly. Water first and feed later.
Dr. Sion Richards (29:55):
That's, yeah. Not common practice. Right. But it would be an interesting
Dr. Alex Bach (29:59):
Point. It is a bit common in, in areas where it's hot. People do that the exit of the parlors, but of course, people are in a hurry for the cows to get outta the parlor, go to the, into the, their pens. So they don't want to put out of that because it slows down the process. But it's, it's recommendable.
Dr. Sion Richards (30:14):
Great. Just changing direction a little bit, Alex. You know, going back in the literature, there used to be some recommendations on the ratio of sodium bicarbonate to magnesium oxide and two to one, three to one, those sort of things. And there, there were a number maybe still is commercial buffer products around that, that optimized those ratios. You know, I think what you're saying is you just need mags. Would that be fair comment?
Dr. Alex Bach (30:45):
I would first start with Macs, and then if you want to add, so Mac, you can do that. But the ratios to me is meaningless. You need those 0.4, 0.5, maybe 0.6% magnesium and then 1%. So in MCC carbonate
Dr. Sion Richards (31:05):
So, so yet to go, Alex, you've, you've drawn a, drawn a line from my red line off ratio, which is great.
Scott Sorrell (31:13):
So, so you said one person. So is there some sodium bicarbonate, or do you think that there's really not a need for it?
Dr. Alex Bach (31:20):
By sodium bicarbonate you mean like free choice or
Scott Sorrell (31:23):
Well, in the diet. Oh,
Dr. Alex Bach (31:24):
In the diet, yeah. Yeah. There is this, there is a, yeah. Is a case. Yeah, yeah. There is a case for it. Absolutely. if you're gonna use it, use it to 1% and, and you can use in Russians, like in the UK with lots of grass that you don't have space problem for. For energy, perhaps you could do that. Yeah. So it depends on your situation. Yeah. Got it. Magnesium oxide is not that cheap either. So sometimes if, if the, if your meal production, like in, in, in Azores, like in pasture based and also produce 25 liters of milk, which is Ruben Acidosis, because it's just pastured and lots of water, maybe sodium mac carbonate is a better option than magnum oxide. =
Dr. Sion Richards (32:04):
Is, is there any risk Galax of, you know, actually reducing sodium bicarbonate in saliva by not supplementing bicarb?
Dr. Alex Bach (32:14):
No. it's, it's been funny because the, the amount of sodium bicarbonate in, in saliva was studied in the seventies and then zero desert. And now in 2023, there is a one team from Switzerland, I believe it was, they studied again. And it really, what dictates by carbonate concentration in saliva is the flow rate of saliva. So as the saliva flow rate increases, sodium carbonate content of saliva increases.
Dr. Sion Richards (32:41):
Okay, that's interesting.
Dr. Alex Bach (32:42):
But it's unaffected by whatever you feed in the diet.
Scott Sorrell (32:47):
Okay. Alright. What I'll ask now is that let's just kind of come up with a couple key takeaways for the audience. Have each of you guys kind of think through a couple things you'd like them to know and, and Maimie, if you don't mind, can I start with you?
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Maimie French (33:27):
Yeah, I think my, my key take take home is the, is the mag oxide. It would probably not have been my first go-to buffer previously to hearing Alex's research, so I'm definitely gonna take that to my hairs back in the uk. Although not forget about the sodium bicarb with my high grass sage diets
Scott Sorrell (33:48):
Sion, I think,
Dr. Sion Richards (33:48):
I think my take home I thought was a great point about diet dry matter is, is, is have a look at some of the diet dry matters, you know, see why we're, we're going so wet and adding, adding water. And I think also, you know, have a look at some of the decab equations and perhaps you know, start looking at some of the more complicated ones rather than the basic ones and, and start considering that and therefore, you know, utilizing the full effect of mag oxide and seeing if we can get somewhere with it. So, Hmm. Keep moving the, the red lines. Yeah.
Dr. Alex Bach (34:22):
If I, if I may add a comment on the dica though. It's, it, it's a tricky one in the field because you'll, you'll always use stable values. You will seldom analyze your data, your, your diet for potassium and sodium, and if you do it, you'll do with NIR and n ni on minerals is what it is. Mm-Hmm
Dr. Sion Richards (34:48):
No, no. But if, if you don't try and look at it, go Right, you
Dr. Alex Bach (34:51):
Have little bit Absolutely. You,
Dr. Sion Richards (34:53):
You can't, you know, if you can't look at it, you can't influence it and be aware of it. So Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (34:59):
Jonas, yeah, no,
Dr. Jonas De Souza (35:00):
I think for me building up, you know, the dec story it's important considering, you know, like what meta regression does right. And what the points you really are talking about. So the graphic that he shows is really interesting to consider, you know, what the range when you're putting a regression line and, you know, being less scared of, of changing that dec a number as well. I think, I think is one of the key points, you know with the normal range, you know I think that is, that is not enough data that we can say you, you're gonna lose performance or you're gonna lose intake if you, if you drop your dec a, you know, at the extreme levels. Yes. You know, because that's what the regression does, you know? So, so that would be my, my, you know, mostly in the, the main point to take from the presentation was, you know, dec a's important.
Dr. Jonas De Souza (35:50):
But I think you me, you just mentioned this is yeah. You know, especially if you using NIR, you know, I would be really careful of looking dec a 'cause NIR is not, it was not a technique designed to look at minerals. It's, it's supposed to look at, you know, organic chemistry. So, and that is, that is people looking at that and making for on field and just should be careful, you know, and I, great technology, you know, for organic if you're talking protein, if you're talking fatty acids, if you're talking fiber I think can derive nice calibration in ar I would be really careful to do that with minerals for sure.
Scott Sorrell (36:25):
Dr. Bach,
Dr. Alex Bach (36:28):
Ah, I don't know the, the, the, my, my take home message would be focus on your ration. When you ration you should ration based on what you can measure, and then you look the other things and take into consideration. But what really drives your ration should be what you can measure. Yeah. and then if that's well done, you're done. And if not, start using other tools magnesium, sodium, bicarbonate, acid, buff yeast, you name it. Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (36:56):
Perfect. Yep. Excellent. You guys been a great panel. I appreciate you joining us today. It's been a good one. Dr. Bach. Thank you Jonas, for, thank you for bringing him along. Mm-Hmm
Balchem (37:19):
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